This comes after a somewhat heated debate on bolter and chainsword between my self and a relatively new player in Maverikgirl.
It rose from what is best 10 grey hunters (with 2 special weapons) or 9 with a pack leader. Someone went on to say that they found 11 to be best but as we all know that doesn't fit in a rhino. So the scene is set so here's the cut and thrust of it.
My belief is that foot slogging wolves isn't viable for competitive play.
You have neither the speed or the numbers to guarantee getting to your opponent in any fit state.
Her point was that when she plays this list her opponents concentrate on her long fangs or vindicator leaving her troops alone but ask yourself is this what you would actually do that when you have a nice load of troops infront of you to feed your long fangs missiles.
Wolves do have some fast choices but none of them consistently game winning.
By far the best fast attack choice in the Space Wolf codex is the speeder however it can be cricumstancial., crack a land raider and its repaid its points in bucket loads but is it really going to ever win you a game when you can't follow it up quickly leaving you with it isolated and fairly easy to pick off?
So from my memory of the codex that leaves you with sky claws, swift claws and thunderwolves.
Now sky claws and swift claws lack a point of WS and BS, is this game changing? No. Sky claws certainly, not sure about swift claws but I assume so suffer from headstrong which means that you need to put someone with them. They also aren't durable.
That leaves you with thunderwolves, now I don't think there can be many people in this country who have played with thuderwolves in big units as much as me and at the start of the year I came to the conclusion that they weren't viable as you can see in my last ride of the thunderwolves post from March. They eat too many points.
The problem with all the fast attack choices is that they die to torrents of bog standard fire and there are too many great armies that can do that.
Can a foot slogging wolf army deal with venom spam? What about leaf blower guard with its multitude of flak cannons, heavy bolters and multi lasers? Can it deal with las plas spam? Can it out fight other foot slogging lists like a Blood Angels jump pack army or a stealer heavy nid army?
So what do you think claws and fists readers is it possible to take a foot slogging list to a tournament and do well and if it is why isn't anyone doing it?
Hrm.
ReplyDeleteLoganwing with skyclaw backup?
it'd probarbly play a bit like death/ravenwing, but not as well :)
Pop wolf preists with the skyclaws and thier WS is less of an issue
not sure if it would work, but it popped into my head to maybe try :)
Wait, ignore me. WP's don't get rerolls like chappies, right? bah.
ReplyDeleteI feel special, maybe I should hide behind a blog and write about people who have prejudices against a mainly foot slogging list. Ignoring the fact that maybe....just maybe, I play against the opponent. Playing on their over-confidence, and against an inexperienced WOMAN, at that. Enough for them to make a mistake, any at that, for me to capitalize on. Yes, I know about threat ranges and threat projection. But I don't sit and wait for my opponent to move towards me for the entire game! that's dull. Nor do I have my heavies at the farthest edge of the table closest to me, some of them are at the edge of my deployment, closest towards my opponent at the start of each game. I play my wolves in the mid-field... playing my wolves to their strengths. I play my wolves both defensive and offensively. And no my opponents don't always get distracted by long range fire power, they don't always leave my troops free to run around, who would? and why would you all of a sudden assume that was always the case? some of my Grey Hunters get shot up, most of them are inside rhinos, or behind one. But while that's all happening, at least one of the Grey Hunter packs get where I want them to be.
ReplyDeleteYou are an incredibly insecure person. Never once have I said anything about you being a woman and the influence it has on your 40K ability. I put this on here because it will get a different readership than on Bolter and Chainsword. A lot of people who blog are tournament players and so are equipped to answer my questions on whether foot sloggers are viable in the tournament setting.
ReplyDelete40K is not poker where you are trying to out think your opponent and bluff your way through a game. Playing your opponent would have no benefit against me because I openly talk through my moves and thinking patterns with myself to slow down my gaming.
whaaaat? how or where do you get insecure from? (you realize I was being sarcastic in my first comment) when all I mention, is that being an inexperienced woman (new player) plays to an advantage, by an opponents assumptions/first impressions. How many women have you played? and thought to yourself, meh.. she's a woman shouldn't be much of a challenge. It happens in sports all the time, judging a book (person) by its cover is a natural human behavior.
ReplyDeleteAlright that's fair enough, posting this entry on a blog and all. I guess it's just that, you sounded so convincing, and sure of yourself on B&C, that I was just surprised that you even needed expert tournament bloggers to "equip and answer your questions." are you suggesting that those people back at B&C aren't equally capable to answer in a competitive mindset? or is it just answers you want/prefer to hear instead of need to hear?
Let me get this straight, so your saying 40K is just a random game, with dice and plastic/metal little men were your not trying to out think your opponent, or thinking ahead of your opponent by taking an objective and keeping that objective? but it's alright! at least during your games, your have a self monologue happening. I guess we might have a new Morgan Freeman in our hands.
You realize I'm just fcukin with you? oh wait, am I suppose to be insecure? I missed my cue damn! I never got the memo... I'm sorry!
I don't know who MavGirl is but I think I'm in love...
ReplyDeleteAnyway, this looks like it got a little heated and for once it wasn't my fault...but back on topic...I think it's fair to assume that you are both correct and incorrect...40k is different to all players and they will naturally gravitate towards players of a similar style and mindset. While Simo talks things through with his opponents (who I will assume are regualr opponenets and/or friends) MavGirl, from what I can tell likes to outthink and focus on playing the game more like chess. Out of curiosity MavGirl do you usually play pick up games
There is nothing wrong with either approach tbh and it just comes down to your personal outlook. Also, I think it's fair to say in Simo's defence (wow, now I feel dirty) that the response you will get from a Blog is very different from one you'll get on a forum. Further to which as I know Simo doesnt play in games outside of the UK (and I use the term play, rather than compete on purpose there) it's fair to say that the majority of people who read and comment on this blog will be from the UK Blogging network and so the views and opinions will reflect the local "meta"...(now I feel really dirty).
Well, thats enough from me...feel free to reply, or just continue your debate...
WP's give rerolls against a specific unit type to themselves and their unit.
ReplyDeleteSimo, you come off as having a certain degree of "tunnel vision" in regards to the viability of foot slogging wolves. How much have you used them, against the very things you say they don't have a good chance against? I just think you are limiting yourself by breaking 40k down into a rock/paper/scissors dice off.
There's a lot to be said for knowing how to play against your opponent as much as their army, without taking into account the dice.
That said, I don't think foot wolves is by any means an easy thing to put together in the land of razorspam and leafblowers, and having to REALLY think about your list, and how each unit synergizes with the others might just be a lot harder for some people than "derp, I'll just bring 12 las/plas razorbacks".
My first lists were footsloggers usnig Sky claws with as many grey hunters as I could get down supported by lone wolves and long fangs and they were routinely mowed down by gun lines before they ever got to firing range.
ReplyDeleteThe slow movement allowed a gun heavy army to pick a target, obliterate it and look for the next one while you are sat running your army and hoping for the dice rolls to get you there fast.
40k over the last few years appears to have gone into the realms of a dice off, how does venom spam work? Chucking loads of dice. Same with razorspam and Leafblower.
We've both cited leafblower, but I honestly don't think it applies, as leafblower is a competitive machine that very few things can hope to stop.
ReplyDeleteI agree that a lot of builds have moved to chucking a lot of dice, but I think it's by and large an arms race fad. If someone broke the mold and found something different that worked against these, they'd become "last week's flavor".
I think there is an as-yet untapped potential in Fenrisian Wolves, for example. On the surface, they seem subpar, as indicated by the fact that they didn't even register in your OP, but if someone put in the time, we might get more out of them.
The problem is its not easy to come up with something that will counter these especially not until a new codex comes out, We shall have to wait and see if Necrons will be a competetive foot slogging force but this brings me back to my original point.
ReplyDeleteWhy aren't tournament gamers running competetive footslogging wolf forces? I think the answer is clearly on the British scene at least, you can't. There is too much stuff that munch through them before you get to your enemy.
I don't see Fenrisian wolves improving that really. Other than acting as bubble wrap for a turn what are they going to do for you? You still won't be a hoarde army even with 3 full squads of them.
A squad of 20 is the same price as a moderately loaded out GH squad.
ReplyDeletethey can cover 24" of ground in a turn, and are large enough to pull multiple units into a combat. Will they win? Maybe. Depends on how many get there and what they assault. Will they at least lock down those units long enough for your foot sloggers to get into position? Maybe. Will your opponent be expecting it? No, because FW "suck".
Granted, that's nothing for a leafblower, but it could certainly tarpit a venomspam list if done right.
But you first have to demech the things you want to pull into combat, any one with half a brain is going to have their heavy guns bubble wrapped. Let them pull some thunder hammer wielding termies into combat because they are going to lose. Big groups of fen wolves aren't a game changer in my opinion when it comes to footslogging.
ReplyDeleteWhen you say Footslogging, is Loganwing an option?
ReplyDeleteI've played Loganwing with 5 Wolf Guard squads (4 in Power Armor, 1 Terminator with CML) and it can be brutal. There are just so many missiles to throw around, and the range of fire is such that you don't need to get up close.
Now with just Grey Hunters and meltas, it would be a lot trickier, since you need to get closer before you can open fire.